"With Nomination Clinched, Obama Now Free To Be Horrifying Scumbag"

Scum-baggishness Tippery? (8.00 / 4)

"I'll hire half the working class to kill off the other half."-- Jay Gould, robber-baron  

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by: konopelli @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 10:21:29 AM CDT

if confronted with this grievance... (9.00 / 1)

...what do you suppose Obama would say?

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by: weeping for brunnhilde @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 10:51:52 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Rationalize? Temporize? Equivocate? Take your choice... (0.00 / 0)

"I'll hire half the working class to kill off the other half."-- Jay Gould, robber-baron  

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by: konopelli @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:20:21 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

right, no, but I mean spell it out for me (6.00 / 2)

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, for the sake of argument, what's the case he'd make?

I ask because I don't think Obama is some kind of saint, but nor do I think he's a flaming hypocrite.

He's demonstrated (successfully, in my view) way, way too much wisdom, self-reflection and honesty for me to find a facile accusation of hypocrisy plausible.

---

by: weeping for brunnhilde @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:01:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Actually, weeping, (0.00 / 0)

This:

"nor do I think he's a flaming hypocrite."

is something that I take issue with somewhat.  Here's why:  Considering all of Obama's lofty talk about change, hope, unity, etc., the fact that he
has not advocated cutting our military budget to pay for various necessary domestic programs, etc., rescinding the disastrous NAFTA program, or dismantling both the Patriot Act and the Department of Homeland Security, which are also costly, in addition to being threats to civil liberties, is, imo, very hypocritical.  

I also think that Obama exudes a sleek, slick and phony charisma, coming off like a salesman, which I'm not comfortable with, and the idea of simply giving money to illegal aliens for college tuition for their kids is not such a great idea, either.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

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by: independentminded @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:17:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

IM (0.00 / 0)

Copying and pasting this from my essay yesterday:

Back in February, Barack Obama proposed a $60 Billion Infrastructure Reinvestment Bank, which would invest in highways, technology and other projects which would result in the creation of two million jobs.  He plans to fund the project by ending the Iraq war.  "It's time to stop spending billions of dollars a week trying to put Iraq back together and start spending the money on putting America back together instead."


Insert witty quote here.

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by: puzzled @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:28:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well, (0.00 / 0)

This:

"Back in February, Barack Obama proposed a $60 Billion Infrastructure Reinvestment Bank, which would invest in highways, technology and other projects which would result in the creation of two million jobs.  He plans to fund the project by ending the Iraq war.  "It's time to stop spending billions of dollars a week trying to put Iraq back together and start spending the money on putting America back together instead." "

may be a start, but, I still think that rescinding NAFTA and dismantling the Patriot Act and the Department of Homeland Security is still important, which Obama hasn't advocated doing.  Quite frankly, while he may talk  grandly about what he plans to do,  I've yet  to see a President who really and truly lives up to their promises.  I think it's a mistake to think that Obama's a knight in shining armor who'll swoop down to everybody's rescue come January, assuming of course, that he gets elected.  I've learned to distrust most politicians.  Sorry, puzzled.


Ahhhh....Life goes on.

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by: independentminded @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:43:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Here's something funny, IM (8.50 / 2)

I took a course in American Government in 1976, and I found out that the President of the United States cannot abrogate or end unilaterally a treaty that has been authorized by Senate approval (i.e. advise and consent).  It is something in the treaty clause of our Constitution.

So, if Obama said "I'm going to get rid of NAFTA," it would be nothing more than a cheap campaign promise, which he would be unable to follow up on.

If he said "I'm going to try and make sure we don't have any more treaties that harm the U.S. workforce like NAFTA and do my best to have that treaty amended" then he would be at least realistic about what he can do under the U.S. Constitution.

I'm also pretty sure that the Patriot Act was a law passed by both houses of Congress.  It would be totalitarian of President Obama to rescind it.  

As far as the DHS goes, it too was created by an act of Congress, so I assume that although as President, Obama could minimize the functions of this department, it would be in violation of our constitutional checks and balances for him to dismantle it without Congressional approval.  

I don't believe Barack Obama is a knight in shining armour, but I do believe that he must follow the Constitution, and the demands you appear to be making of him are in direct contravention of said document.  

DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish

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by: devilishadvocate @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 13:21:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sorry, DA, but I stand by my convictions. (3.00 / 1)

Frankly, I see nothing what. so. ever to get excited over in Barack Obama.  I don't like McCain either, so I'm planning to not vote for either one of them, but to simply go to the polls and write in the name of somebody that I think is more appealing. I'm sick and tired of having to make the crappy choice of voting for somebody that I'm not crazy about or not voting at all.  Thanks.

The DHS and the updated version of the PA came under George Bush's watch, so don't kid yourself.  I believe that the president has more influence than  many people care to realize.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

---

by: independentminded @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 21:34:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You think that, IM? (0.00 / 0)

Hmmmm...War in Iraq....Congressional Approval

Creating DHS....Congressional Approval

Appointing Michael Chertoff....Congressional Approval
(98-0...Make sure you thank any liberal Democrat you can, although thanking Ted right now would probably be a little mean)

We can certainly bash Bush for misusing the power he was given, but make sure you thank his 100 friends in the Senate too.

The President is given the power by Congress, especially when they ignore or abrogate their duty as specified under the Constitution.

At no time have I asked you to change your vote, I have just noted that most of your complaints listed do not fall within the executive power of the Presidency.

In fact, unless something really different happens, he won't even have a large enough Senate Majority to force legislation throught the Democratic Party Machine.

Have you been paying attention the last 2 years.  No "D" proposals of any merit have been enacted, but W keeps getting funded and won't be impeached.  His Senate buddies need to do the work, and they don't appear to be doing it.  

DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish

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by: devilishadvocate @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 22:22:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I still think that (0.00 / 0)

the DHS, the updated version of the Patriot Act and our war on Iraq were all made possible under George W. Bush's watch.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

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by: independentminded @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 23:17:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Shhhh. Stop it, puzzled. (10.00 / 4)

Don't you know that unless a candidate supports every single thing I believe in, he or she is worthless, shifty, and untrustworthy.......if not, indeed, Satan Personified.

Dammit, I am the only thing that matters!  To hell with the potential collective good!  It's all about ME ME ME ME ME.  I am, in fact, the single most important voter in the United States.

And I am most certainly not tedious as all fucking hell.  The constant, endless Eeyore act is fucking thrilling.  No one's certainly ever done it before.

(Sarcasm off:  Those last three sentences are precisely why I stopped trying to be the constant raincloud on the horizon.  I was starting to annoy myself, let alone other people)

The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present...As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country.

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by: Raybin @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:49:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What'd he say when he endorsed Loserman? Recycle that... (0.00 / 0)

"I'll hire half the working class to kill off the other half."-- Jay Gould, robber-baron  

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by: konopelli @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 14:25:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

? (0.00 / 0)

---

by: weeping for brunnhilde @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 15:12:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Here's a couple of links. (0.00 / 0)

ONE, and TWO.

"I'll hire half the working class to kill off the other half."-- Jay Gould, robber-baron  

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by: konopelli @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 17:10:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hi weeps, (6.25 / 4)

How you doing, my friend? I owe you an e-mail from forever ago, I haven't forgotten ;-)

I rise to identify myself as another un-enthusiastic supporter. There are policy positions I disagree with, but that's not the focus of your question regarding hypocrisy, so I'll address that.

I think there are several examples, but I'll offer as evidence the most recent news. Today he announced that he was opting out of the public campaign financing system, when he had previously stated that he was in favor of it, and would accept it if his opponent did.

His explanation is fact based, and accurate, that he has raised money in a substatially different way than any other candidate in history, with a greater number of individual donnors, and the majority of them in small dollar amounts. However, that's not the point.

If he said he didn't believe in the system, or that it was good, but he should not be obligated to partake, that would be fine. What he said was un-ambigous, and it's clear to me that the decsion here is one of political expediency.

I'm not dis-appointed, as that implies expectations, and I have none, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer it to be different.

I hope I get to see you sometime, soon.

Cheers!

"Truth has no time of its own. Its hour is now -- always, and indeed then most truly when it seems most unsuitable to actual circumstances."

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by: roysol @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 16:56:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

point well-taken, my friend (9.67 / 3)

(And it's nice to see you.)

See, here's the question: at what point do such reversals constitute rank hypocrisy as opposed to the mere garden variety hypocrisy?

Is it a matter of degree, volume, or both?

Can we accept a large number of garden-variety hypocrisies provided there are zero rank hypocrisies?  

I was always disappointed that, when faced with "accusations" of being a Muslim, Obama never said, "I happen not to be a Muslim, but fuck you, so what if I was?"

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by: weeping for brunnhilde @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 20:17:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I like the way you think. (7.00 / 1)

Oftentimes, anyway.  ;)

"All that is gold does not glitter. Not all those who wander are lost." Tolkien

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by: Rachel @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 22:45:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh! and while I have you here (7.00 / 1)

or at least where I think there's a reasonable chance that you'll see this...you have Music Friday QotD next week (i.e., one week from tomorrow).  I've covered your ass for the last two, but no more!!!

Next Friday.

Don't piss me off.

"All that is gold does not glitter. Not all those who wander are lost." Tolkien

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by: Rachel @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 23:02:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Jeebus, Rachel!! (8.00 / 1)

I honestly can't remember when my second Music Friday was due (I know I missed my first, sorry).

Can you reprint the schedule?

or just let me know, in the sweet, sensitive way that you just told Weeps!!!

DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish

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by: devilishadvocate @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 23:16:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh dear. (7.00 / 1)

You're (duh-duh-duh) tomorrow!  (that wasn't duh as in "duh" but duh-duh-duh as in the music they always play when things get really fucking serious.

But let me know if you want me to take it.

:)

"All that is gold does not glitter. Not all those who wander are lost." Tolkien

---

by: Rachel @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 00:01:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

duh-duh-duh, indeed (nt) (7.00 / 2)

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by: weeping for brunnhilde @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 10:46:21 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

ok, ok!!! (6.00 / 2)

Remind me, though, ok?

Life's a mixed-up crazyworld of disjointed events!

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by: weeping for brunnhilde @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 10:45:01 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I just *did* remind you (8.00 / 2)

but okay.


"All that is gold does not glitter. Not all those who wander are lost." Tolkien

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by: Rachel @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 12:46:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

oh, my Rachel (nt ) (7.00 / 1)

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by: weeping for brunnhilde @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 13:15:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Konopelli: (0.00 / 0)

While I think this diary is interesting and I, too have my own reservations about Barack Obama, I agree that this:

" Actually, Obama proved his bona fides as a scum-sucking status-quo monkey in 2006."

was more than just a little bit out of line there.  There really is something blatantly wrong with referring to a black man as a monkey, and it doesn't take a genius to figure that  one out.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

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by: independentminded @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 21:55:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Never let it be said I disallow views opposing my own on MLW's front page. (8.14 / 7)

--7.88, --6.56      If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution.

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by: Maryscott O'Connor @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 10:45:23 AM CDT

"You disallow views opposing your own on MLW's front page." (7.50 / 4)

Pffft!

"All that is gold does not glitter. Not all those who wander are lost." Tolkien

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by: Rachel @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 22:46:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Something is Rancid (0.00 / 0)

In the Obamanation.

Thanks K.

Some see it; some don't.

Oh well.

'Being born in a stable does not make one a horse.' Arthur Wellesley

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by: Major Disarray @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 10:51:03 AM CDT

What do you see? (0.00 / 0)

It is a matter of life and death, see the documentary Food INC and vote no to corporate take over of our food every time you buy groceries  

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by: Kathleen @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:04:21 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm a Seer (7.50 / 2)

Most all of us types are blind.

I foresee a great loss in November.

Please pass the hopeium pipe to me.

I'll take a few tokes and toddle off, rapping in front of me with my cane.

'Being born in a stable does not make one a horse.' Arthur Wellesley

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by: Major Disarray @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 13:17:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

OH Dear (7.00 / 1)

I am with ya babe.  I'll pass the pipe and we can hang on to each other.  After I'm done with my hep C treatment I'll top it with a martini.  We'll have an excuse for our toddle.

It is a matter of life and death, see the documentary Food INC and vote no to corporate take over of our food every time you buy groceries  

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by: Kathleen @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 13:30:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And the Delphic Oracles (0.00 / 0)

Have been sending their usual cryptic messages.

This ground don't auger well.

'Being born in a stable does not make one a horse.' Arthur Wellesley

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by: Major Disarray @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 16:56:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I know (0.00 / 0)

it is like a slow drum beat.  I am passing the hope dope.  Hang on!!

It is a matter of life and death, see the documentary Food INC and vote no to corporate take over of our food every time you buy groceries  

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by: Kathleen @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 21:54:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes, because it's such a good idea... (8.12 / 8)

....for the leader of a party to engage in driving incumbents from office.  That'll make everyone rally around him.

Think this guy supported Clinton?  I'll bet he did.  I'm no political genius, but I'd theorize that assisting in defeating Clinton backers is not precisely the way to bring them into the fold.

Obama thinks he can win Georgia.  He needs this guy if he intends to.  

Play the game.  Win the game.  Then change the rules.

If Obama becomse president and supports some terrible legislation this stupid fucker Thomas enthusiastically backs, I will agree with you.  

Schwarz is a reactionary fool.

A "scumbag"?  Perspective, please.

And the insinuations in this statement:  Bonus scumbaginess: Barrow is white, Thomas is an African-American woman. are appalling.

The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present...As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country.

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by: Raybin @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:20:15 AM CDT

I should hasten to add... (0.00 / 0)

...this is not say I've forgiven Obama for supporting Holy Joe back in the day.  Now that was horrifying.

The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present...As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country.

---

by: Raybin @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:20:53 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

that *was* horrifying (0.00 / 0)

And I'd be really interested to hear his thoughts on the matter.

---

by: weeping for brunnhilde @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:08:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

My guess? Playing the odds (6.50 / 6)

It was most likely that Joe was going to win and if he opposed him, he risked alienating him.

Fat lot of good it's done him, given that Joe's lips are firmly attached to McCain's saggy, wrinkly buttcheeks.

I just hope it's an object lesson for him in how weak-spined decisions can come back to bite you on the ass.

The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present...As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country.

---

by: Raybin @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:12:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What about "better' Democrats? Change? Crap like dat? (0.00 / 0)

"I'll hire half the working class to kill off the other half."-- Jay Gould, robber-baron  

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by: konopelli @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:21:40 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The change can only come... (0.00 / 0)

...when he gets elected.  That's by no means a guarantee.

Look, if he betrays us (a by no means unlikely possibility...I don't want to make it seem like I'm a complete nincompoop) I will be out in front of everyone to tear the man to shreds.


The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present...As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country.

---

by: Raybin @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:10:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No one changes the rules (5.67 / 3)

AFTER they win the game under those same rules.  That would be illogical.  Common sense would tell them to continue playing the same game, as long as they keep winning.

Obama will become president and he WILL support terrible legislation, just like he has done in the past.  He will not change the rules, he is the establishment candidate, end of story.

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by: PaulWillis @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 13:12:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I will vote Obama in November, because (6.25 / 4)

of the Supreme Court and the evil that is McCain and today's Republicans.  That said, he's going to make you yearn for the DLC.  One man's prediction.

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by: Zok Tok @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:34:05 AM CDT

A strong possibility (9.00 / 2)

I think it's also just as strong a possibility that he will be a wild success.

I can predict this with some confidence:  Obama (should he win) will be a hideous one-term failure or a two-term legend people talk about with reverence decades from now.  I don't think there's going to be any middle ground there.

I just don't know.  I can't tell.  

The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present...As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country.

---

by: Raybin @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:16:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Last I checked Barack Obama (7.80 / 5)

is a politician.  He, therefore, as Raybin notes, makes political calculations.

He's not fucking Saint Obama.

But, let me ask you, how many people currently in high public office would be better or more liberal?

A handful, maybe.

Well, he's the one we got, dude.

And the chances are excellent that he will be the next president of the US.

After 8 years of the current hideous maladministration I would hope that lefty kinda people might be grateful for a change in direction.

Lord of the Karmafishes

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by: Karmafish @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 11:56:36 AM CDT

I'd be delighted with a change in direction (7.00 / 1)

The direction now seems to be "south", at least metaphorically.

Obama will lead us south-south-west-southwest west southwest.

Ah Progress...

"I'll hire half the working class to kill off the other half."-- Jay Gould, robber-baron  

---

by: konopelli @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 14:30:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'd be curious to know just when (6.00 / 1)

you think the US was not going south?

At what point do you think we switched directions?  Was the country headed in a nice, progressive northerly direction in the 60s?  Hell, we had the Vietnam war and the conservative movement developing during that period.

Obviously any time prior to that and you get into the era of Jim Crow and segregation.

Some people like to suggest 1963, as if the assassination of JFK was a coup-de-tat.  I never heard of a coup in which the same high level government officials remain in office even after the coup takes place.

What say you, kono?





Lord of the Karmafishes

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by: Karmafish @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 16:16:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm pretty sure I phrased my reply metaphorically... (6.00 / 1)

think i mighta even used the word...

circling the bowl doesn't have the same directional implicature...

i am one of those who sees the kennedy assassination as the turning point.

not an coup d'etat, per se, but more a strategic replacement of an increasingly untrustworthy capo/boss, a caligula, by someone of the same hierarchy. Kennedy was killed to prove a point: Nobody's safe, if you piss us off...
Point taken. Re-iterated at Kent and Jackson State(s) a decade later, just incase you missed it...
In a culture with mass media exposure, you don't have to kill many people to make your point. Just keep repeating the footage...

"I'll hire half the working class to kill off the other half."-- Jay Gould, robber-baron  

---

by: konopelli @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 18:53:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

SSSHHHH!! (6.50 / 2)

Only those in the inner party are supposed to know this.

You live in a scary world, KO.

Try meditation.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 01:13:29 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I blame Oliver Stone. n.t (7.00 / 1)

Lord of the Karmafishes

---

by: Karmafish @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 02:24:09 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oliver Stone blame (7.67 / 3)

One reason for hoping that Obama wins is that if he doesn't, Stone will issue a conspiratorial movie "exposing" the reasons he lost.'

It will be highlighted by a raw footage film of the evil Right Wing Conspiracy at a planning session for how they are going to paint obama in such a way that the majority of Ameriocans will not vote for him.

On the screan, there will be a small sequence of obama, repeated many times, while the conspirators intone:

"Black, and to the left.  Black, and to the left.  Black, and to the left......."

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 02:40:28 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The fact that Obama and McCain are both politicians (0.00 / 0)

is exactly why we can expect to continue to be screwed royally no matter which one gets to be our next POTUS, whether it be McCain or Obama.  Neither one of them will be able/willing to control the demons that've been set loose, if one gets the drift.  Neither of them are to be  trusted, imo.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

---

by: independentminded @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:11:25 PM CDT

A bit of advice (7.86 / 7)

Let's try not to refer to Obama as a "monkey."  The reasons should be obvious.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:31:39 PM CDT

Who's referring to Obama as a "monkey"?? (6.00 / 1)

Not me...I, too think that there's something blatantly wrong with that, if one gets the drift.

Ahhhh....Life goes on.

---

by: independentminded @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:45:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The diarist n/t (6.00 / 3)

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 13:14:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's actually the only (4.50 / 2)

thing about this post (the monkey thing) that jumped out at me.  And I don't believe for one minute that it was a mistake.  Right wingers trying to sow discontent will always eventually show themselves.  You others will too, eventually,  mark my words.   Peace

---

by: imhotep @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 13:37:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"You others..." n.t (6.00 / 1)

Lord of the Karmafishes

---

by: Karmafish @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 13:40:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

with all due respect (0.00 / 0)

ESAD, dimhotep...

"I'll hire half the working class to kill off the other half."-- Jay Gould, robber-baron  

---

by: konopelli @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 14:31:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And FUCK, you (0.00 / 0)

konopelli.  And no respect intended.  Peace

---

by: imhotep @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 21:11:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Dimhotep (5.00 / 1)

Nice play on words, K.

And fuck you too Dim.

no respect meant or intended.

'Being born in a stable does not make one a horse.' Arthur Wellesley

---

by: Major Disarray @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 21:21:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No, Fuck You, MD! (6.67 / 3)

Fuck all of you hairy punks!

Fuck all of yaz!

And fuck me, too!

Nyaaaahhh!!

{Jesus.}




Lord of the Karmafishes

---

by: Karmafish @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 21:29:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Is This Becoming (8.00 / 3)

A Group Grope?

'Being born in a stable does not make one a horse.' Arthur Wellesley

---

by: Major Disarray @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 21:35:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Major Asswipe, fuck you too (9.00 / 1)

Great game.  Who's next?  Peace

---

by: imhotep @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 21:40:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Peace (6.00 / 1)

'Being born in a stable does not make one a horse.' Arthur Wellesley

---

by: Major Disarray @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 21:53:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why don't you take (1.00 / 1)

your kind of Peace and shove it right up your ass.  Before it's done for you by the masses, you fascist pond scum.  Peace

---

by: imhotep @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:47:34 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You mean Kuck you? (9.25 / 4)

I thought the new F was K.

It is a matter of life and death, see the documentary Food INC and vote no to corporate take over of our food every time you buy groceries  

---

by: Kathleen @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 22:12:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You will have noticed that I used no profanity in my retort to dimhotep... (7.00 / 2)

Like Barry, staying above the fray, not descending into the stew of name-calling,, vilification and ignomy.  

"I'll hire half the working class to kill off the other half."-- Jay Gould, robber-baron  

---

by: konopelli @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 22:24:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So "dimhotep" was what (0.00 / 0)

a compliment?  You shrill, silly fascist go FUCK yourself.  Peace  

---

by: imhotep @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:43:14 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Dim, you seem to have some unresolved conflicts (7.00 / 1)

I wish you the best with them, if you can do so by consuming your exudates and thereby perishing...

"I'll hire half the working class to kill off the other half."-- Jay Gould, robber-baron  

---

by: konopelli @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 18:23:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

kono, politicalfleshfeast is next door. (11.00 / 1)

Know what I mean?




Lord of the Karmafishes

---

by: Karmafish @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 18:35:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

i kept it civil...twas not i who breached propriety... (0.00 / 0)

you have to be minimally literate to judge my retort insolent...

"I'll hire half the working class to kill off the other half."-- Jay Gould, robber-baron  

---

by: konopelli @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 18:37:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I understand, but at this point it's like (11.00 / 1)

1 person against 7.





Lord of the Karmafishes

---

by: Karmafish @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 18:45:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

dim attacked me. (0.00 / 0)

my dad, a fencing coach, advised: kill on the first riposte...am always practicing

"I'll hire half the working class to kill off the other half."-- Jay Gould, robber-baron  

---

by: konopelli @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 19:03:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yeah, I know. (11.00 / 1)

But any time that I find myself to be one of the maturest people in the room, then I know there's a problem.

He's got any number of other people on his ass right now.




Lord of the Karmafishes

---

by: Karmafish @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 19:07:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's my problem, how? (0.00 / 0)

I didn't address, attack, implicate, or otherwise refer to dimhotep in any of my originary posts.

We enter these lists all mounted and armed.

He's been no friend to me.

Fuck'im...

"I'll hire half the working class to kill off the other half."-- Jay Gould, robber-baron  

---

by: konopelli @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 19:16:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Honest to god! (0.00 / 0)

Was that a Freudian slip, kono?

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker

---

by: Curmudgette @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:47:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The trope on which i was relying for semiotic context was (6.00 / 2)

the slur on the french as 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys."

"I'll hire half the working class to kill off the other half."-- Jay Gould, robber-baron  

---

by: konopelli @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 17:01:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That didn't come across at all. (6.00 / 1)

One of the funniest phrases ever, but your twist on it was unrecognizable. It was suggested neither contextually, nor rhythmically. I never would have grokked it, had you not explained.  

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker

---

by: Curmudgette @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 17:41:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I guess i shall have to settle for less than 100% comprehensibility (0.00 / 0)

darn

"I'll hire half the working class to kill off the other half."-- Jay Gould, robber-baron  

---

by: konopelli @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 18:43:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I love it when you say "grokked." (8.00 / 2)

Shanikka used to say "grokked."

It sounds just as goofy coming from you as it did from her.

---

by: weeping for brunnhilde @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 20:19:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not much of a Heinlein fan. (7.67 / 3)

It's just such a cool word. It filled a profound gap in our lexicon.

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker

---

by: Curmudgette @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 21:18:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

sigh... (6.00 / 3)

Not directing this at anyone specifically, but at the concept of the whole PC thing in general.

I work in IT. I spend a decent amount of time coding, and am often referred to as a code-monkey.

I have a guy who runs cable for me when I'm doing install work, and we call him a cable-monkey.

My uncle is a mechanic. He sometimes gets called grease-monkey.

It is a fairly common verbal device.

In the context in which it's used, the diarist obviously didn't mean anything racial.
There are so many Real things to get pissed off about, why is so much time and energy expended in denouncing a word that could, if said in a different context, be insulting?

I will push that idea a half step further and say that if I would call a white mechanic a grease-monkey, but not a black one, that would be racist...
i.e. treating someone differently based on the color of thier skin.

but I'm sure my view is too simplistic somehow,


Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
-Eric Hoffer

---

by: BrimStone @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 13:54:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I agree (0.00 / 0)

a lot of times we are too thin skinned and quick to point the finger and say there it is.  It is best to give one the benefit of a doubt and take the high road thought, it leads to a better world in the end I think.

It is a matter of life and death, see the documentary Food INC and vote no to corporate take over of our food every time you buy groceries  

---

by: Kathleen @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 14:06:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Matters not. (4.75 / 4)

We all have to bear in mind that words have different meanings in different contexts. Referring to Obama, or any black person, as a monkey has a completely different semantic connotation. One which is being currently exploited by race-baiting Republicans. No one is saying that kono meant to deliberately refer to Obama with a racial slur; only that it's good to be mindful of the implications.

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker

---

by: Curmudgette @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 14:53:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

i sorta get that (6.00 / 1)

but at what point do intent and motive come in to play?

I just dont believe that someone can make a non-deliberate racial slur. Someone may say something which is misinterpreted, but is that really a slur?

But as stated, my view is probably overly-simplistic. It's just the way I view things. I don't modify my language to suit my audience. (except for cleaning up the vulgarities around children)



Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
-Eric Hoffer

---

by: BrimStone @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 15:27:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Generally I would agree (5.00 / 2)

and I'm not known for my political correctness, but race will be a troubling aspect of this campaign, and "monkey" is a racially-charged term when applied to a black person.  And unlike Howard Cosell's affectionate use of the term (which got him in a world of trouble), in this diary the term monkey is preceded by "scum-sucking status-quo...."

So, I stand by my earlier statement, and I'll even add to it -- when you are insulting a black candidate for president, perhaps it's not advisable to refer to him as a "monkey."

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 15:14:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Paul, what if.... (0.00 / 0)

the term 'monkey' is preceded by the term 'surrender?'

Even more interesting, what if someone were to say that Obama "looked French?"

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 18:33:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well (7.50 / 2)

What if someone referred to Obama's maneuvering on campaign finance reform as "shuck and jive?"  Or if it was Russ Feingold as the nominee, and someone referred to his negotiating strategy as trying to "jew them down?"

Even if racial insult isn't intended, I think it behooves us all to make an effort to avoid racially charged terms.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 18:37:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thing is... (0.00 / 0)

The PC thing can be taken too far, as we saw in the Democratic primaries.  "What is offensive" is different from "what someone can twist into seeming offensive."

"Shuck and jive" is fine.  It is a term derived from Black language, the kind of thing we whites in beatnik times freely adopted.  The facts of its origin do not make it offensive. It would be offensive only if it was always negative (I certainly don't think so) and was always applied only to Blacks, in this case.

I always see a little dance when i see this term, a way of ducking trouble by avoiding direct questions, or working around difficulty.

Perhaps you can tell me how this quote was seen as offensive:

"It's not a TV-crazed race, you know, you can't just buy your way through that race ... It doesn't work that way, it's frankly a more demanding process. You have to get on a bus, you have to go into a diner, you have to shake hands, you have to sit down with 10 people in a living room.

"You can't shuck and jive at a press conference, you can't just put off reporters, because you have real people looking at you saying answer the question, you know, and all those moves you can make with the press don't work when you're in someone's living room.

"And I think it's good for the candidates. I think it makes the candidates communicate in a way that works with real people because you know in a living room right away whether or not you're communicating. And I think the questions are good and I think the scrutiny is good ..."

"Jew them down" arguably is offensive, or it may refer to a generally recognized admirable talent ascribed to Jews.  I prefer Fr. Guido Sarducci's "Presbyterian them down."

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 18:52:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Presbyterian them down! LOL (6.00 / 2)

I love that. But shouldn't it be "presbyterian them up?"

The other pitfall is that some terms can be used by the group in question, but not by folks who aren't members of the group.  The best example I can come up with is "nigger."  Just because a black person might refer to another black person as "my nigger" doesn't mean that I, as a honky, won't get my ass kicked if I use that term.  Wearing the baseball cap sideways on my head when I do it won't help my case any.

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 19:33:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What's the old phrase, (0.00 / 0)

"your rights end at the tip of my nose."

"and my rights end at the tip of yours"

But you would be well within your rights to say it, and they would be violating your rights to beat you up.

I'm fairly sure that any political point you scored would be offset by the broken bones.  

DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish

---

by: devilishadvocate @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 19:40:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Within my rights? (6.00 / 2)

Would it be well within my rights to use that term?  In a pure free speech sense, yes, I suppose I can call a black person "nigger," an Arab person "towelhead," a woman "cunt," etc.  But do I have the moral right to do that, to call someone a term that has the potential to wound them so deeply?  Just because I can do something doesn't mean I should, that's the point I'm driving at with my comment about "monkey."

In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

---

by: Paul in San Francisco @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 19:48:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh yes, (7.00 / 1)

but I'd just gotten done reading MSOC's Free Speech essay and I thought I'd kind of mush the two together.

DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish

---

by: devilishadvocate @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 19:50:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm such a free speech enthusiast (7.50 / 2)

that I believe that Neo-Nazis should be able to produce their literature, music, etc. I do not believe in prohibitions against hate speech in the marketplace of ideas. Doesn't mean I would ever use that speech. And it sure as hell doesn't mean that I would not state my disapproval of the words and the meaning of those words. That's what free speech means. People have every right to say odious things and other people have every right to tell them it's disgusting. I wasn't allowed to use the n-word growing up. It's so charged for me that my moral compass will rarely even let me utter it, even to make a point. That is completely ingrained, for me, and I will raise my own daughter the same way. But I abhor even token legislation against it.  

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker

---

by: Curmudgette @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 20:15:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If McCain (7.00 / 1)

can call his wife a cunt, I don't see why it should be a problem for anyone else to use the word.

/snark

Insert witty quote here.

---

by: puzzled @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 20:25:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Moral rights? (8.00 / 3)

I'm not sure what the concept is.  Isn't the question, "does this action comport with my moral code?"

Certainly we also have a shared "mores," although we boomers tried hard to destroy every last vestige of same, ven while erecting different mores.  (Perhaps we should have called them 'lesses.')

You are absolutely right that just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should do something.  But when one is not secure in his own freedom, he sometimes must prove his freedom by doing just what he thinks he shouldn't to prove to himself that he is free, free from "them," usually.  "No one can tell me what to do.  It's a free country."  One sees this commonly in adolescents.  Of course, we now live in the age of extended adolescence, sometimes coincident with higher education.

Remember, we grew up singing, "I won't grow up...."

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 01:21:49 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

and, " we will over come....." (0.00 / 0)

It is a matter of life and death, see the documentary Food INC and vote no to corporate take over of our food every time you buy groceries  

---

by: Kathleen @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 16:11:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The two (5.00 / 2)

among the boomers seem to fit together.  But among the older warriors, "We Shall Overcome" seemed to have a certain fatalism, a sadness, a sense that "some day" might not be in the lifetime of the singer.

Among the boomers, it seemed to have a sense of "We want it, and if we just insist on it, we should and will get it.  Now."

Among the former, the sense was, no matter what, we will continue the struggle, even without perceptible advancement.

Among the latter, "we will" is emphasized, "some day" is de-emphasized, and the sense is that if we don't overcome damn soon, we'll throw a tantrum.

Of course, i am painting with a broad brush here.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 18:21:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I agree with you (0.00 / 0)

except, "we'll throw a tantrum."  I felt we were strong in our beliefs that we could change the world or go out trying.  That together we will over come the odds against us.  Naive, yes but I still believe and will die trying and believing in my fellow humans.

It is a matter of life and death, see the documentary Food INC and vote no to corporate take over of our food every time you buy groceries  

---

by: Kathleen @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 20:56:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hey, I said broad brush (11.00 / 2)

I was one of those who threw the tantrums.

I wrote an essay here somewhere on the path traveled by many of us back then.  One of the steps in the path comes in your words here:  "I still believe and will die trying and believing in my fellow humans."

How each of us traveled down that path depended in part on how we handled the fact that not all human beings believe as we do, that they can't be "educated" to believe as we do, that some human beings actively work against what we think are the right things.

There is a great temptation to blame those human beings for not agreeing with us, or for not reaching the same obvious conclusions we do (because, say, they are not educable, maybe because of the evil society), or to blame human beings because they are actively "counterrevolutionary," and therefore have given up their right to some measure (depending on how radical one is) of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness, let alone property.

The hard thing is to expand one's belief in one's fellow human beings to include even those who actively oppose us, to see them as just as necessary to the human drama as we are.  Easily stated, very, very difficult to put into practice.  But our belief in our fellow human beings means nothing if it doesn't affirm Dick Cheney.

My image in this, my reminder of my own shameful path, my clear reminder of the dangers, is the tragedy of Leo Burt, who within just a few months traveled from a dreamy idealist who could have easily echoed your words to someone who took another person's life.  That other essay:

Kent State--Not the Date

(Few commnts--skip to Maryscott's.  She had her usual guts to say what others shied away from.)

And Leo, if you are still out there, I haven't forgotten.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

---

by: Madscientist @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 23:07:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I have no desire (10.00 / 4)

for people to think alike or to change anyones mind.  I love the diversity, ideas different from my own.  

What I desire is for us to evolve to a place where we can live in harmony.  

A place where it is more important to take care of each other than to be right.

A place where there can be more than one right.

A place when mistakes are made, lessons are learned and forgiveness is important.

When Kent state happened it changed my whole life.  I thought they are going to kill us all.  I moved to the country, stopped protesting and though about what we were doing.  I realized we did it all wrong.  How could we expect them to listen when we were saying fuck you to everything they stood for. Our rebellion worked against us.  We could have stopped the war a lot sooner if we had approached it in a way they could hear us.

I learned my biggest lesson about communication with that experience.  Yelling fuck you no one hears anything except fuck you. I also learned that I have to live what I believe.  Walk the walk and that is the only way I can make a difference.  I made a vow to myself that everywhere I go I will be what I want.  I am not always successful but that is my goal.

Yesterday started out wonderful here on MLW.  The music lifted spirits and Rachael's baby and garden.  Wonderful!  Then people start talking about issues where they don't agree and  the fuck yous started flying.  You could feel the level of energy sinking. :o(

Fighting chips at the spirit of everyone who participates and witnesses.  If we can't find a way to talk to each other without fighting we are in a sad state. We are all fixer uppers, learning as we go and as we fall down let us pick each other up and forgive.

All I can say is I know there is a better way for us as human to touch and be in this world. Yet all I can change is me.

Peace to you my brother.


It is a matter of life and death, see the documentary Food INC and vote no to corporate take over of our food every time you buy groceries  

---

by: Kathleen @ Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 11:55:52 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Now if you're looking for a really really dumb idea... (6.00 / 2)

....to dump on Obama for, this would be a good candidate.  Absolutely stupid.  Idiotic.  Etc etc etc.

The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present...As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country.

---

by: Raybin @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 15:09:04 PM CDT

Obama will vote to Fund the War....Watch.... (0.00 / 0)

Isn't it clear that Obama will continue the Wars....he will shift to Afghanistan to feat a more appealing enemy...."the Taliban"""...

He's against impeachment of War Criminals Bush and Cheney..

He's pro military while the nations ecomony slowly dissolves without you quite being aware of it...untiil it's too late.

Obama will now vote for WAR FUNDING....Watch....I guarantee it...Giving Bush free reign.

Obama is Pro Israel...

This nation is going to be a full fledged fascist nation no matter who gets elected.

Consider that.

I cannot vote for fascists....and it's not just a word ...it's really the TRUTH. There is TRUTH IN FASCISM. and America is fascist.

Meaning....TOTAL CONTROL over the people by the State.

Stu Piddy....a free range human

---

by: Stu Piddy @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 15:58:46 PM CDT

Fuck you, Konoplantmonkey (0.00 / 0)

Barrow endorsed Barack in Feb. after the Georgia primary while Thomas dithered until Brack had the nomination sewed up.

Carl Lewis had earned the right at the Selma Bridge to take his time endorsing... Regina's time had come and gone.

Barrow won his district by less then 900 votes with overwhelming black support in '06 and while many of his votes reflect the conservative values of his constituents, including the black ones, he is right on stem cell research and fundamentally supports choice...

I will take that out of the 12th district of Georgia....

asshole...

 

"Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

---

by: durrati @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 19:59:20 PM CDT

I told him to FUCK (9.00 / 1)

himself also my friend.  Great minds think alike.  Which is why konopelli makes such a great right wing running dog.   Peace

---

by: imhotep @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 21:17:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If You Want Some One To Fuck (0.50 / 2)

Durrati:

You might check out Bambi.

Sinclair says he likes boy on boy sex.

'Being born in a stable does not make one a horse.' Arthur Wellesley

---

by: Major Disarray @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 21:31:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

yeah, and some say (3.00 / 2)

Hillary's a carpet muncher and McCain is a traitor....

some people will say anything, including, apparently, you...

"Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

---

by: durrati @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 21:44:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No, FUCK YOU, durrati! (7.75 / 4)

And fuck Saint Obama, as well!

Fuck everyone and everything!

.
.
.

wtf, is going on here, dude?

People are acting like fucking children, just flinging garbage at one another.

It's ridiculous and childish.




Lord of the Karmafishes

---

by: Karmafish @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 21:34:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

what the fuck is going on here (1.00 / 1)

is that kono is a front pager, allowed to post his droppings at will...

Maryscott takes pride in it not being said that dissenting opinions are allowed...

but she could at least filter some of this hateful shit.

"Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

---

by: durrati @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 21:40:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The Essay (1.00 / 1)

Was promoted By MSOC, for diversity.

Still vexed at not being a front pager here?

Probably a very wise management decision.

Whine some more about it.

I enjoy it.

'Being born in a stable does not make one a horse.' Arthur Wellesley

---

by: Major Disarray @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 22:06:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

hey, maryscott (2.00 / 2)

enjoying yerself much?

"Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

---

by: durrati @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 22:09:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

or is this (1.00 / 1)

diane?

"Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

---

by: durrati @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 22:10:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No. (6.67 / 3)

The essay was not promoted; the diarist was. It may seem like a slim distinction, but it's one I feel like making.  

"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker

---

by: Curmudgette @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 22:19:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Duratti, what is going on here (8.00 / 2)

less in the essay but more in the comments, is for (arguably) the first time, Barack Obama is not maintaining faith with a concept, an idea, a substantial "change" that he himself proposed.

For him and his staff to spin his earlier (back when he didn't know he was going to was outraise the Republicans) it was all good to use campaign financing to level the playing field.  Now that he's on top, well, he doesn't really care that the playing field isn't level anymore.

And that, understandbly, is making people distrust him.

Thus, they talk about it.

If you think that talking about perceived flaws in "your" candidate is wrong, then either you or he have a problem with open government.

And that too would be in diametric opposition to his stated position.

You cannot have it both ways.  If he is an agent of change, then he needs to prove it.  So far, since Hilary bowed out of the competition, he's become much more the run-of-the-mill politician, at least in appearances.  

DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish

---

by: devilishadvocate @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 22:41:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

C'mon DA (0.00 / 0)

the case you lay out is flawed.

McCain used public financing as collateral for a loan then proceeded to raise $125,000,000 from the fat cats and only yesterday, after Barack's announcement, finally opted for public financing in the general...trying to make Obama look bad.

Having taken the DNC off the corporatist tit, Barack is staking his run on the million and a half small donors like me who have supported him. It will be up to us to contribute to his campaign, the party and Moveon the hundreds of millions of dollars that will be necessary to combat the Repub 527s and the lies they will propagate.

His success using the method Howard Dean pioneered should not be used as a cudgel against him. It is democracy (note the small d).

He is also honoring Dean by using his first ad buy in the General Friday to launch a fifty state strategy...although at least part of the thought process here is probably "we'll dilute the effectiveness of the smear machine by spreading it thin".

Rumor has it that Barack will blast the FISA compromise this morning.

We will see...

"Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

---

by: durrati @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 05:16:48 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Geesh, durrati (0.00 / 0)

put the old thinking cap back on.  Is there nothing so ridiculous that you won't simply roboticly repat it if it emanates from the Obama campaign?

I'll bet you may actually believe the old "we raised it from small donors so it's really a new kind of public financing" garbage.  The point is whether or not you think that money should decide an election, no matter where it came from.  Do you?

It reminds me of a big evil capitalist, who gets his money freely from millions of "small donations" of those buying his product using his huge financial resources to stifle competition.  He may argue that his product is better, but we'd like the other product to get a fair shot so we can decide for ourselves.

btw, are you going to be present at Warren Buffett's $28,500 a plate fundraiser for Obama coming up?  Of course there are no "fat cats" in the Democratic party, so any old Democrat can attend.  I do hope that you write up your experiences at the fundraiser for this blog.

Now, your question of the day:  was more money spent in 2004 by 527s identified as "Democratic/liberal" or by 527s identified as "Republican/conservative?"  In other words, just which side spent the most to get out their "lies?"  Whose 527s have spent more to get their lies out this cycle?

I don't know where you live, but where i live, I haven't seen a TV ad by a rightist 527, but i see 20 a day from left wing 527s.

His success using the method Howard Dean pioneered should not be used as a cudgel against him.

Nice example of the old sh=uck and jive.  No one is using his success as a cudgel.  The issue is whether the man stands behind his word.  Or when he finds it politically expedient to go back on his word, if he gives us an honest reason for doing so.

Or does he act the baby and whine, "the mean old Republicans might have 527s put out  bad ads about me, and i can't count on the fact that left wing 527s have more money to spend, and better liars to spend it on.  So I have to have even more money so I can buy the election and protect myself from those mean old Republicans."

I'm on his list now, so I got the second try at explaining his hypocrisy yesterday, and it just made it worst.  All he had to say is, "Look folks, when i made my promise, I had no idea that i would have enough money to buy the election.  I do.  I think I'm the best candidate.  So I'll go ahead and buy the election.  America will not be sorry."

.although at least part of the thought process here is probably "we'll dilute the effectiveness of the smear machine by spreading it thin".

NO.  the strategy is widely thought to be, and has been hinted to be by Obama staffers, that because he has many times the money that McCain has, he can spend all over, forcing the McCain campaign to spend where it might not want to.  the hope is to bankrupt the McCain campaign so that it can't effectively compete on a money basis in states he needs to contest.  John D. Rockefeller would be proud.

And you continually miss the point that the Democrats, taken widely to include associated 527s, have a better financed and more experienced, as well as more vicious smear machine than do the Republicans.

You could at least be honest about it, durrati.

Remember, Obama not only made his promise, he went out of his way to get the ruling from the FEC to make it possible, answered the question of whether he would accept public financing with a yes, reiterated his committment to work with the Repoublican candidate to have both accept public financing.  He gave his word, not on some flimsy piece of campaign rhetoric, but on specific behaviour which he controls.  He went back on his word.  it is as simple as that.  No amount of dithering and obfuscation can change that.

All you have to say is, "I don't care if he went back on his word or not, I'm still planning to vote for him."  That is good enough for me, and should be for anyone.

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

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by: Madscientist @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 05:56:24 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I suppose (0.00 / 0)

the correct course is to embrace public financing publically during the primaries, then raise as much as possible from the lobbyists after you have secured the nomination; and then to pocket the $85,000,000 in public money while you whine and poor mouth.

There is at least as much weasel coming from McCain as from Barack on this mad one.

Why should Obama play by the geri's rules, when the ancient one has violated them himself?

"Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

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by: durrati @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 06:40:36 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Where do you get (0.00 / 0)

this nonsense?

I mean, you've got the old mean-spirited smear, so typical of you and your ilk.

If you got some claim to make, link it up.

I just checked over at OpenSecrets.  As of May 21, McCain had raised a grand total of $655,576 from lobbyists.  Obama had raised $161,927 from lobbyists.  These are, you will be forced to admit, tiny sums when each candidate is raising millions a month.

If you think "pocketing" the $85,000,000 is such a good deal, why is Obama whining that he can't get along on it?  Is he admitting that he can't beat McCain fair and square with equal money?  Is that what you think?

I think you are both wrong.

So, absolutely no weasel from McCain on this one.  He announced his intentions so early that Obama referred to him when he answered the questionnaire last November.  Remember, the agreement called for all excess money to be returned to donors after the primary season.  You don't get to bring in as much as you can, then simply keep it and take the public funding.  Didn't you know that?  USA today reports that the McCain campaign has already started returning donations and/or transferring money to a legal compliance fund, which is allowed under the rules.


"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

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by: Madscientist @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:37:33 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Duratti, I'm not the one making a case (9.00 / 1)

I'm pretty sure that would be the Junior Senator from Illinois.  He has to make a case to the American people to get elected.

I'm not saying he shouldn't do it.  I'm not saying he isn't right.  But I am saying that he and his (tee hee, I love using this word) minions are trying to spin this so he doesn't look like every other politician.

Say one thing when you're in one situation, do another when you've got the advantage.

Doesn't really sound like an "agent of change" to me.

I've never asked that Obama make specific promises.  I don't think it is wise, given the limitations on the Presidency.  But don't put shit in my hand and tell me it is gold.  I know the difference.

DA is The Most Interesting Man in the World. - Karmafish

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by: devilishadvocate @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:52:14 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oy. (0.00 / 0)

Lord of the Karmafishes

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by: Karmafish @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 22:57:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Vey. (7.00 / 1)

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by: Shifamrak @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 22:57:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Goy. (8.00 / 1)

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

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by: Madscientist @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 01:23:31 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hey (8.00 / 1)

"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one." -Voltaire
Ah, my dear Voltaire, doubt is an acquired and cultivated taste, like Laphroaig Whisky or fine truffles, and quite as exquisite.

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by: Madscientist @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 01:24:07 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Let it all hang out (8.67 / 3)

Sometimes you just have to let loose.  And some of the right wing fascist nut jobs on this blog are really starting to crawl up my ass to sniff around and that's becoming real annoying.  Back them off or somebody's gonna get their head ripped off and their neck shit down.  Peace  

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by: imhotep @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 21:43:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Bring Your Lunch (7.00 / 1)

I'm not going anywhere.

'Being born in a stable does not make one a horse.' Arthur Wellesley

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by: Major Disarray @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 22:09:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

imhotep, I can't back 'em off. (9.00 / 1)

I have no such power, really.

Tho, I would ask for people to stop being complete and total douchebags.

I don't really use that word a lot, y'know.

Douchebag.

It's actually a pretty good word!

Anyway, we were just starting on a conversation and I would very much like it to continue.

Don't worry, I'm just chewing things over.  When it comes to our common interest, we'll dig deeper.  




Lord of the Karmafishes

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by: Karmafish @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 23:19:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Your a real gentleman (5.00 / 1)

Peace

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by: imhotep @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:54:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

durrati (11.00 / 1)

you doing alright?

I understand disagreeing with the underlying points of this essay but I don't understand why you seem to be so very upset.  Is there some backstory of which I'm unaware?  Is something else going on?

Hope all is well on your side of the world--

Rachel

"All that is gold does not glitter. Not all those who wander are lost." Tolkien

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by: Rachel @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 22:56:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

hey Rach (2.00 / 1)

everything's fine here though there's a lot of rot in Denmark and I fear it starts at the head...

And, yes, there is a back story and you can read all about it

here

"Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

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by: durrati @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 05:26:34 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Obama got his initial stake from the nuclear industry (0.00 / 0)

He raised a whole lot more online from lots of small donors, but his initial support was from the nuclear lobby.
So I'm back to voting Green on the Presidential level, anyway.  

Ed Craig "Think this through with me. Let me know your mind..." Hunter/Garcia

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by: epcraig @ Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 13:41:07 PM CDT